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Finding wealth on the beaches. What to do with your finds

tonznz		Posted : Saturday, 23 July 2011 9:06:57 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2011(UTC) Posts: 667 Thanks: 261 times Was thanked: 199 time(s) in 152 post(s)		Hi all, I have, with my MINELAB Sovereign GT, over the last few years found various pieces of jewellery on the beaches and playgrounds around NZ. Normally I drop off the items to the local Police Station. Three months or so later I pick them up, or have them picked up, after a letter arrives saying no one has claimed said items. In my experience few items are reclaimed. It then clears my conscience about my collection. Who knows how long some items have been lost when I find them. On beaches rings, in particular even the gold ones, have in my experience been often found with a small break in the circle, as the lesser metals have dissolved in the salt water atmosphere. I came across a curious thing early this year when I dropped in several rings to the Dunedin police station. The lost property officer said all would be returned to me bar any inscribed with names. What, I asked would happen to those? We destroy them, said the property officier. They don't gather the bits up and send them off to be smelted down and give the money to a police charity; no they destroy them. That's our policy they said. Now it seems to me that those who metal detect should be aware of that NZ police policy. Knowing what I know now I will not in future give anything to the police found inscribed with a name. I will not have valuable property, which is mine, once due process has been followed, destroyed. Has anyone had a similar experience that can verify what I was told?

Maverick		Posted : Saturday, 23 July 2011 10:09:18 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Nugget Groups: Registered Joined: 7/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 78 Location: ChCh Thanks: 2 times Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)		i would dispute that policy with them. the policy as far as i know, ( and i just checked again on the police website) if it's unclaimed after 3 months it's yours. no disclaimers about if it's inscribed or anything. i have on a couple of occasions handed stuff in when i was a lot younger, and got them back when not claimed. but in recent times ( last 4-5 years) i have heard storys from people who have handed over quite valuable items and have checked regularly if they have been claimed, and told no, only to have them claimed with a week or less to go before they were able to claim them back themselves! read what you want into that, i try not to draw any conclusions either way myself, but if these days if i was fortunate enough to get something like a gold ring, then i would be more inclined to put ads in the paper and post online in message boards and social media to locate the owner myself, which is a more proactive approach than just waiting to see if someone contacts a lost property office. and just as an aside, i wonder if some rings on beaches have been thrown into the surf on account of a breakup or some such event....? Edited by user Saturday, 23 July 2011 10:11:12 PM(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

oroplata		Posted : Saturday, 23 July 2011 10:26:21 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered, Moderators Joined: 16/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,040 Location: Christchurch Thanks: 23 times Was thanked: 211 time(s) in 152 post(s)		One (or more!) govt depts make it as difficult as possible to pull gold out of the ground. Once finally obtained, another mandates bashing it with a hammer and burying it back in a landfill instead of recycling it. Public service job creation/continuation scheme?
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tonznz		Posted : Saturday, 23 July 2011 11:27:38 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2011(UTC) Posts: 667 Thanks: 261 times Was thanked: 199 time(s) in 152 post(s)		Yes, bureaucracy can be blind and stupid beast. I'm a little wary even on this site of saying too much about what I do in case a beaucrat somewhere finds offense and find I've broken some stupid law or something. And I don't discuss my finds with anyone unless they are kindred spirits. I've learn from experience that half the people you tell about finding a gold ring or even a penny with a metal detector will moralise immediately about how you should be taking everything you find to the police. Good reason not to disuss what you do with anyone unless they are good friends, close family, or other detectorists or other hunter gatherers you trust. In CHCH , Marverick, if you have a metal detector, I would suggest going to go over to Lyttleton and working your way way around any inner habour rocky protected beaches you can find at low tide seeking out older coins and the curious stuff you find at or below the low tide mark. I don't know that area but at least on the maps it looks good. On the sandy beaches that's where you find modern coins, which is good too. I often go at low tide in dunedin on such beaches and and walk up to knee deep with my minelab sovereign gt and its amazing what there is out there. Good hunting mate.

Maverick		Posted : Saturday, 23 July 2011 11:53:03 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Nugget Groups: Registered Joined: 7/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 78 Location: ChCh Thanks: 2 times Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)		thanks for that, not much 'beach' around the actual harbour, wharfs and such. i saw some reports posted from someone who did some detecting around corsair bay and governers bay he was getting some good finds but attracted a lot of people asking questions and wanting to know what he was getting. when i do any detecting i don't like getting bugged, even if they are well meaning and just curious, it just bothers me is all. but a cap pulled down and dark glasses and headphones gives you a good excuse to pretend you don't see/hear them LOL! and as for showing people what you got...don't tell anyone you don't trust and i was told to keep an old 5 cent piece in your pouch so if they wanna see what you just picked up then show them the old and worthless not the gold you just got. and i have also found that showing people the bag full of pull tabs and foil and rusty nails and old cans also helps them realise i'm not just after valuables but also care about getting rid of the rubbish others litter the beaches and parks with. or that's what i let them think..... i still hope for gold !! :)

tonznz		Posted : Sunday, 24 July 2011 12:55:32 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2011(UTC) Posts: 667 Thanks: 261 times Was thanked: 199 time(s) in 152 post(s)		Yes Marverick. I agree. I do the cap on the head and headphone thing and turning away from people action too. It gets a bit tiresome satisfying the curiosity of everyone you meet. However I'm not a shy person and as long as people ask me questions politely I don't mind engaging with them. I like being left alone though, and crack of dawn or last thing at night in those long south island twilights suits me better. Boring things people say: "Have you paid the cost of the detector yet?" "What are you looking for? " "What are you doing?" "What is that thing you have?" "Are you allowed to do that?" About that area you mentioned in chch, it sounds good. Remember the scenario of rocky beaches, inner harbour beaches protected from major long term changes and plan your hunt to coincide with low tides and go at or below the water line. Other good places I've found include popular beaches that have been undercut by wave and storm action. Sometimes I've found bonanzas of old coins and jewellery uncovered by wave action and undercuts. I take the rubbish away also and most definately keep and sell the lead, copper, brass, aluminium I find. The older NZ currency I tumble in my rock tumbler and sort and deposit with the reserve bank in WGTN when I pass through. You can fill a form in, downloaded from their web page, and drop the currency in with the completed form on the counter and walk away. They deposit money into your account a while later. last time I collected $90 I recall. I also tumble modern currency to get it presentable to use. I use sand, deterent and rocks and the combination works well.

simon		Posted : Sunday, 24 July 2011 10:22:46 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 7/01/2011(UTC) Posts: 789 Location: Central Otago Thanks: 33 times Was thanked: 239 time(s) in 150 post(s)		tonznz: i laugh at your list of what people say while you are detecting. it reminds me of my summers spent at the shotover river sluiceboxing. similar sort of thing. i would get "what are you looking for?" quite a bit. i would have my sluice, spade, gold pan (you think that would spell out something), and i was next to the oxenbridge tunnel on the so called richest river in the world and that was the best they came up with. have to admit many were australian. think they fell into town on the last package tour flight. "have you found anything" is 2nd to the above. if they are annoying i usually reply no, i've just been coming here every day for the last 4 years to find nothing at all. depending on the people this is often thought out aloud as you do get sick of the stupid question and making smartarse remarks. "are you making your fortune?" is up there. I usually say i've found a couple of specks but nothing more. don't want to encourage every tourist around into manning a plastic dish and a rock (yep, some of them do - 1 guy started coming along daily with pretty much nothing more than a stick. told him he needed a spade. he came back the following day with a brand new kids plastic sandpit spade. on the shotover! don't get me wrong. i enjoy talking to people. it's just some days its a constant stream and you end up getting no work done. i often go out of my way to help people in how to pan/sluice etc, or tell them a bit about the history of where they are (a lot of tourists here, and even a lot of locals don't know much about what's around them). i don't spend too much time on the smart arses. i tried detecting the beach at sunshine bay here with my gold bug 2. got all sorts of stuff like hairpins, nails. hard to dig though as its all shist pebbles and rock.
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Shilo		Posted : Sunday, 24 July 2011 10:50:02 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 29/01/2011(UTC) Posts: 573 Location: Kawhia Thanks: 17 times Was thanked: 285 time(s) in 185 post(s)		I would have asked the police officer to put the policy of destroying inscribed items in writing and then checked it out at a different station or on a national level. It does not sound correct to me at all, do they destroy electronics, bikes etc that have been personalised by the owner but can't be traced? Beware that even after receiving an item back from the police - you are still not the "legal" owner. On the back of the receipt there is a clause that stipulates something along these lines. But it does prove that you have taken all reasonable steps to trace the person that lost it. In fact for at least the valuable finds the legal owner is most likely an insurance company as they gain ownership when they pay out on a claim. This highlights the fact that that officer has no legal right to destroy the inscribed jewellery. My personal policy is that if the find is a obviously a recent loss (6 months or so), and over a certain value in melt then I hand it in to the police. Also if I have been asked to find an item then of course I will return it to the owner. But I will not hand in every valuable find. As above there is a good chance that the person who lost the item has been paid out by insurance. If for example, when a ring is returned to the person and they have had a pay out, they should inform the insurance company who will offer to sell it back to them for the price of the pay out. How many people would do that? Why wouldn't they just keep quiet about the return and end up with the ring and the cash? I have tested this with people who have approached me on the beach with queries like "I lost a ring on this beach last year - can you find it?" When talking to them I bring up insurance and I have only had one person say that they haven't claimed (that lady said she couldn't be bothered - $1500 set of earrings!). None knew that the insurance company was the legal owner of the item lost. Of course something like a wedding ring etc has huge sentimental value, but the chance of being able to track down the owner after a few months is almost zilch. It is only if they have reported the loss to the police is there any chance, even then I don't think the police keep permanent records of these reports so it is only during the 1st 3 months of the loss is there a chance of a return. It is up to the individual detectorist's themselves how far to go with trying to trace the original owner and what to do with the item. The above is just my thoughts on the matter. Edited by user Sunday, 24 July 2011 10:52:08 AM(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified
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tonznz		Posted : Tuesday, 26 July 2011 8:07:01 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2011(UTC) Posts: 667 Thanks: 261 times Was thanked: 199 time(s) in 152 post(s)		Hi all, in regard to the question of Police destroying valuable lost jewellery inscribed with names I sent an email to the minister of police two days ago as follows: "...Dear Hon Judith Collins, I have on occasion handed to the NZ Police jewellery (gold and silver) found by myself whilst metal detecting around NZ beaches. I was concerned to be informed told last time I handed in several pieces of jewellery to the Property Officer at the Central Dunedin Police Station (early this year) that any items that I had handed in that were inscribed with names would not be returned to me, even if no one came forward to claim them. I asked the property officer what then would they do with items inscribed with names but not claimed by the person who lost the item. I was told that the items would be destroyed. I questioned this statement and the property officer was very clear that it was police policy to destroy items inscribed with names. If it is indeed NZ police policy is the policy not then in conflict with the common law right "... A finder of property acquires no rights in mislaid property, is entitled to possession of lost property against everyone except the true owner, and is entitled to keep abandoned property..." Such waste is just plain dumb. Please advise me if it is at present the NZ Police policy to destroy jewellery inscribed with names unclaimed by the one who has lost the item. kind regards...." I had an email back today with a letter attached saying my question has been passed by her assistant, Inspector Scott Spackman, to the Commissioner of Police. I'll copy and report here the eventual reply if one comes.

Shilo		Posted : Tuesday, 26 July 2011 10:29:42 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 29/01/2011(UTC) Posts: 573 Location: Kawhia Thanks: 17 times Was thanked: 285 time(s) in 185 post(s)		Good work Tonznz, I'm looking forward to their reply. The 2 things that worry me is that if it is Police policy then it discourages these finds being handed in - kinda defeating the purpose of the police having a lost and found. Also if it is not handed in, would selling the item for melt or for example on Trademe be legal? I have a couple of inscribed rings (no full names) that I hadn't handed in because they were obviously very old losses. Would hate to have to attack them with the Dermel so I could sell them at a future date....
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Maverick		Posted : Wednesday, 27 July 2011 11:06:38 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Nugget Groups: Registered Joined: 7/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 78 Location: ChCh Thanks: 2 times Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)		I always assumed that all the unclaimed stuff went to those police and customs auctions? thanks for the effort tonznz, it will be interesting to see what the official, official policy is.

tonznz		Posted : Wednesday, 24 August 2011 1:47:21 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2011(UTC) Posts: 667 Thanks: 261 times Was thanked: 199 time(s) in 152 post(s)		Cops didn't reply to me. They fobbed me off. I waited long enough. Their last response before they went silent on me was 26th July when they were fobbing me off to another department. So unless I hear otherwise their stated policy to me at the Dunedin Police station by their property officer is that they will keep and destroy all jewellery inscribed with names. So my advise to you all is not hand it in. You wont get it back, and it will be destroyed.

nzpoohbear40		Posted : Wednesday, 24 August 2011 9:36:32 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 14/07/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,482 Location: Matura Thanks: 26 times Was thanked: 384 time(s) in 329 post(s)		maybe more of us should email the police commisioner with the same question...see if that gets the ball rolling.
		Chris - Fisher Dealer http://www.puiakisupply.co.nz/

madsonicboating		Posted : Wednesday, 24 August 2011 10:56:42 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 21/03/2011(UTC) Posts: 674 Thanks: 187 times Was thanked: 157 time(s) in 127 post(s)		Originally Posted by: tonznz Boring things people say: "Have you paid the cost of the detector yet?" "What are you looking for? " "What are you doing?" "What is that thing you have?" "Are you allowed to do that?" hahahaa classic! Certainly rings a bell for me too! Lately I have been telling the nosey kids that it's an earthquake detector and I'm checking for fault lines otherwise it goes something like "whats that" ..a metal detector...."oh wow cool so what are you looking for?" ... METAL :) Good luck handing your found items to the Poohlice and gettng them back.I buy a lot of jewellery at auctions that have come from the phoolice be it from burgalaries or lost and found items that are unclaimed. So yes they do sell them but who gets the $$ from that i don't know. I'd guess it gets tied up in the legal system as we all know they charge like a wounded pig (no pun intended) :P when going through the court system. FTP!! MSB
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Shilo		Posted : Wednesday, 24 August 2011 2:03:04 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 29/01/2011(UTC) Posts: 573 Location: Kawhia Thanks: 17 times Was thanked: 285 time(s) in 185 post(s)		For this question: "What is that thing you have?" Try answering "It's a weedeater". The scary thing is how many people find that an acceptable answer - when you are detecting on the beach...... I believe they would sell it as well. How do you destroy gold? If you have a receipt from the police for handing it in and it wasn't claimed in 90 days then get it back no matter what is inscribed on it. Only if the item is illegal (from a robbery or illegal substance etc) would the police destroy or keep it. The receipt is proof that you are entitled for it back if the previous owner is not found.
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tonznz		Posted : Saturday, 27 August 2011 1:34:08 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2011(UTC) Posts: 667 Thanks: 261 times Was thanked: 199 time(s) in 152 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Shilo I would have asked the police officer to put the policy of destroying inscribed items in writing and then checked it out at a different station or on a national level. It does not sound correct to me at all, do they destroy electronics, bikes etc that have been personalised by the owner but can't be traced? Beware that even after receiving an item back from the police - you are still not the "legal" owner. On the back of the receipt there is a clause that stipulates something along these lines. But it does prove that you have taken all reasonable steps to trace the person that lost it. In fact for at least the valuable finds the legal owner is most likely an insurance company as they gain ownership when they pay out on a claim. This highlights the fact that that officer has no legal right to destroy the inscribed jewellery. My personal policy is that if the find is a obviously a recent loss (6 months or so), and over a certain value in melt then I hand it in to the police. Also if I have been asked to find an item then of course I will return it to the owner. But I will not hand in every valuable find. As above there is a good chance that the person who lost the item has been paid out by insurance. If for example, when a ring is returned to the person and they have had a pay out, they should inform the insurance company who will offer to sell it back to them for the price of the pay out. How many people would do that? Why wouldn't they just keep quiet about the return and end up with the ring and the cash? I have tested this with people who have approached me on the beach with queries like "I lost a ring on this beach last year - can you find it?" When talking to them I bring up insurance and I have only had one person say that they haven't claimed (that lady said she couldn't be bothered - $1500 set of earrings!). None knew that the insurance company was the legal owner of the item lost. Of course something like a wedding ring etc has huge sentimental value, but the chance of being able to track down the owner after a few months is almost zilch. It is only if they have reported the loss to the police is there any chance, even then I don't think the police keep permanent records of these reports so it is only during the 1st 3 months of the loss is there a chance of a return. It is up to the individual detectorist's themselves how far to go with trying to trace the original owner and what to do with the item. The above is just my thoughts on the matter. Lots of good sensible advice in the above. Cheers. I would add I won't go out of my way to look for anything for a stranger. 98% of the time they have no idea where to start looking for one thing. The missing keys at the beach could well be in the back door of their house. And that has happened! I had one grateful guy who bought me a bottle of liquor which was nice, for finding his girlfriend's ring, but others, who I have found things for were ungrateful and thought they were doing me a favour in some way. One guy wanted me to come to his house and look for a ring on his property. I did. But as I worked he watched me intently the whole time undoubtably in case I found it and nicked the ring. I felt very uncomfortable with his suspicious looks. I walked away from that situation very quickly. I initially had the hunter instinct to find a known lost treasure but questions dawned on me as I worked such as "What was the point. Why was I even there?" Your thoughts on insurance I had never even thought about before. I don't think however that people would be unaware that a lost item that they have claimed for would therefore be the property of the insurance company. I mean it would be a big deal to fill out the paperwork and answer questions about a loss that would be big enough to make a claim for. People can pretend to be naive, but they really know. As an accountant I come across so many people pretending to be naive about being dishonest but you can see it in their eyes. Look at their faces next time and watch their reaction when you ask them if they claimed for the loss already. They will have the "I have been caught out look" in their eyes. Thats my thoughts on the matter anyway.

tonznz		Posted : Saturday, 27 August 2011 1:37:02 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2011(UTC) Posts: 667 Thanks: 261 times Was thanked: 199 time(s) in 152 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Shilo For this question: "What is that thing you have?" Try answering "It's a weedeater". The scary thing is how many people find that an acceptable answer - when you are detecting on the beach...... I believe they would sell it as well. How do you destroy gold? If you have a receipt from the police for handing it in and it wasn't claimed in 90 days then get it back no matter what is inscribed on it. Only if the item is illegal (from a robbery or illegal substance etc) would the police destroy or keep it. The receipt is proof that you are entitled for it back if the previous owner is not found. good one. I have been telling my wife and others about the weedeater quip. Can I use it? Haha.

creamer		Posted : Saturday, 27 August 2011 10:29:56 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 19/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 2,022 Location: Bay of Islands Thanks: 2289 times Was thanked: 525 time(s) in 391 post(s)		They do say possession is only 9/10ths of the law. Finders keepers all that sort of thing. Well if one was to find say a huge chuncky mens s/s wedding band engraved to the occassion, that obviously was precious to someone, wot should one do.. Give it back away.. keep it as a hidden treasure, spend hours trying to find the owner.. sell it.. If one was to find such a thing they would spare a thort for the owner yes but not guilt themself if they were to keep it. Silver, gold, yummm. Shane
		Garrett Ace 350 Xpointer www.nzfossickers.co.nz
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creamer		Posted : Saturday, 27 August 2011 10:35:19 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 19/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 2,022 Location: Bay of Islands Thanks: 2289 times Was thanked: 525 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Oh and when i find G, im goin to stash it with my other finds and guard it like that Dragon in the Hobbit. You know the one, Bilbo tryed to take the dragons jewels with his invisible ring.. Keepin EVERYTHING i find. Shane
		Garrett Ace 350 Xpointer www.nzfossickers.co.nz
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tonznz		Posted : Saturday, 10 September 2011 4:25:38 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2011(UTC) Posts: 667 Thanks: 261 times Was thanked: 199 time(s) in 152 post(s)		Wow. I finally got a reply from the NZ Police. It must have passed through several hands before being placed back in the hands of the Dunedin Police. I feel their response is great and I feel I that I have made a change to their thinking. It makes me far more confident now in handing valuables to the police in that my rights as 1st finder of the goods will be respected. Good on you NZ Police for admitting you were wrong and apologising. If any of you strike this problem with any other police stations in NZ print this letter off and show it to them and set them right! File Attachment(s): letter.jpg

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